The failure of the FA to overturn what most football fans and pundits alike could clearly see was an unjust red card against Andy Carroll in his ‘clash’ with Chico Flores on Saturday, has just further emphasised what a completely backward looking, damaging and unaccountable organisation it really is to the game of football. The subsequent failed ‘arbitration’ whatever that is, also did not change the verdict on Friday.
So how did the Carroll incident begin and progress? Well, in the match against Swansea City, Flores or Chico or whatever we’re supposed to call him climbed over Andy Carroll’s back in an aerial duel, causing the England striker to lose balance. A flailing arm went out from Carroll as he tried to regain his footing, which lightly brushed the Spaniard’s hair. Chico Flores then fell down clutching his face as if someone had thrown a brick at him (which according to reports is something Chico is not averse to threatening people with ironically enough), and completed several rolls on the Upton Park turf for good effect.
Now it is very doubtful indeed that Mr World Cup referee Howard Webb would have even considered blowing his whistle had Chico not gone into his usual theatrics, which was how innocuous the incident was, but instead he pulled out a red card for the England striker, which shocked everyone inside Upton Park, including the then Swansea manager Michael Laudrup.
This was plainly the wrong decision as violent conduct in football, under which Carroll was sent off, is defined in FIFA rules as when the offending player “uses excessive force or brutality towards an opponent when not challenging for the ball.”
Considering Carroll was regaining his balance at that point and was not even looking at his opponent when his outstretched arm made its brush, how on earth can Webb be 100% sure Carroll intended to make contact with Chico? And it surely wasn’t ‘excessive’?
So onto the start of this week, and the subsequent West Ham appeal. Howard Webb came out and said that he still believed it was a red card offence having seen it again, even before the appeal went before the three person independent commission to adjudge.
Is it just me that thinks there is something wrong with this? Is this not putting pressure on the panel and trying to pre-empt the decision? You wouldn’t have a Crown Court judge telling a Court of Appeal judge what their opinion is on a case that has gone to appeal for example, so why here?
Inevitably, rather than go against the opinion of supposedly the best referee in the country, the panel upheld the decision of one of the most overrated individuals within their respective field there has ever been. How he ever regained his credibility after the World Cup final debacle of 2010 is quite beyond me. Apparently if you go to the gym a lot and have a big physical presence that makes you a top referee according to the FA, because certainly his performances haven’t warranted the praise he receives.
Anyway, this ‘independent’ panel is supposedly comprised of three people. Why are we not allowed to know who they are? Further to that why are we not entitled to a proper explanation as to why the decision was not overturned? Considering the three match ban to one of our best players could be potentially catastrophic to our season, and end up costing the club millions were we to be relegated because of it, aren’t we entitled to know the rationale?
Instead the FA released a pathetic statement describing how the ‘Independent regulatory Commission must apply the test of whether the decision to dismiss a player was an obvious error’. As alluded to previously, it seems plain to me that Webb’s decision was a obvious error, but in any case this statement does not provide any information about how the Commission came to the conclusion that the sending off was not an obvious error. What is the test? What evidence was looked at? Whose testimonies were listened to?
In sum, we don’t know who it was who appointed the commission, who the three members of the commission were, or how they reached their verdict. I’m not sure the FA has ever heard of the principle of open justice, and to be frank, it would embarrass a police state. I applaud our chairmen’s’ efforts to try and get this verdict overturned, but it was always doomed to failure, mainly because every club signs up to these ludicrous FA rules at the start of the season.
Moving onto Cheating Flores, why is there still no mechanism to retrospectively punish divers and cheats such as this so-called man? After all these years, nothing has been done in this area to stamp out this awful part of the modern game. Again, the useless Howard Webb failed in his duty as referee in the game in not booking him, as Chico had surely breached the simulation rule, which is defined as ‘Attempts to decieve the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled’. Enough said you would have thought.
Even after this affront to justice, why is there no panel that can look back on cases of simulation like this, which haven’t been picked up by the referee? It must be a good idea to try and punish such players, whose actions are so damaging to the sport, especially when they consistently get away scott-free.
Just think of what watching impressionable youngsters must be thinking when they see the likes of Chico rolling around on the turf after barely being touched and successfully getting an opponent sent off without any fear of punishment. This is something that is patently obvious to the vast majority of football fans and pundits alike, but clearly not to the out of touch FA.
I think it is about time clubs demanded that the FA start reflecting the actual needs of the sport, rather than just being allowed to drift through giving themselves an easy life all the time.
Every club should refuse to sign up to the FA procedures at the start of each season until the mechanisms for justice and transparency are fulfilled by this incompetent body.
Personally, I am sick to death of them, consistently proving to be one of the most backward thinking and reactive organisations there are, and the Carroll incident is the tip of the iceberg for me. Clubs should join together and try and change this body, before any more injustices arise.
FA has always been corrupt
Take the blinkers off – you swing an arm at an opponent you get a red card it is that simple
Actually that is I correct. The idea wax stopping opponents swinging an elbow which should always see a red card as it suggests deliberate and serious intent and even if not shows a lack of due care to an opponent. A straight arm is completely different it does not show intent by its nature indeed you will see such movements endlessly in a match totally ignored because only an idiot would think you don’t use your arms for balance. If you think such use of a straight arm is deliberate a yellow card can be given for carelessness only if it is completely clear there was extreme intent would a red card be appropriate and no one not wearing blinkers could claim that to be the case with Carroll. Fact is if you understand human bionics you would know that unless you know exactly what you are doings and where your opponent is using a straight arm to deliberately strike someone is as likely to damGe your arm as the opponent and there is a deliberate psychological response (similar to the blinking response) that overwhelmingly stops conscious use of arms in this way ( its a defence mechanism) and why when deliberate a bent elbow is almost inevitably the natural response not a straight elbow.
Except it’s a separate action with his hand clearly bent right back which is definitely not a natural balance reaction
Card or no Card the FA is worth exactly that FA
OK watch in slo mo. Carroll is quite steady on his feet before he initiates the full half circle swing back of his arm towards Chico’s head. He even deliberately bends his hand right back to help his swing. Unfortunately for Carroll the ref is stood behind him and looking directly at Carroll. As soon as Carroll initiates the swing the ref can be seen raising his finger.
Carroll actually hits Chico on the top of his forehead before his arm bounces up and skims his hair (all perfectly visible on the footage). In fact chico’s head can be seen quite naturally jerking back as the arm hits his forehead. Carrolls face is a picture when he realises the ref is right behind him. It is only pure luck that Chico misses being hit full in the face by a fraction of a second.
Your own fans on a forum have agreed they think it was intentionally done (a red card for intent, contact irrelevant) but blamed Chico for bringing the refs attention to it. However Chico’s effusive reaction was irrelevant as the ref had a close view of the whole incident as can be seen from the footage.
Chico did not try to cheat to get an innocent player sent of as the player was not innocent.
Carroll also had a sly go at Chico’s earlier in the game and got away with that. So lets talk about the repeated cheating behaviour of Carroll and which he is known for.
In our match yesterday it seems a Cardiff player cuffed one of our players in the back of the head with an outstretched fist as he ran past him (video evidence again). This type of behaviour is not acceptable and should not be supported by any club.
This does not negate the issue of overreaction by many players throughout the PL and beyond but that is an issue that needs to be separately addressed.
Webb,s view was obscured by other players as shown on BT sports “hawkeye”, you cannot justify Cheato’s antics by trying to rewrite your version of history ,the Nazi’s tried that .
And Andy Sam and the West Ham Board
Clearly you were looking at completely different footage to me. Carroll was not steady on his feet, his body was swivelling suggesting he was trying to regain balance, he was looking away from the player and the referee in one specific pic shows he would only have seen it at best out of the corner of his eye and the arm brushed the top of his head at most barely touching and very slow so no semblance of being hurt as Chico feigned could be assumed when studying it.
Indeed if the referee had seen it properly there is no way as the independent delegate supports that he could have seen Floris reaction as authentic which proves he reacted to what he thought he saw rather than what actually happened. Hey that happens we all make mistakes but the sad and incompetent part is that this arrogant self serving official refuses to accept that he got it wrong and over reacted. Knowing he would be supported by the old boys network his own self belief of perfection was at the forefront of what happened next more than natural justice.
Thanks for your response. Look again and tell me Andy is not solid on his feet before he initiates the swing. Yes it is a virtually blind swing but he knows where Chico is.
Chico has fallen over his shoulder so Andy is not rotatating until he initiates the swing.
Why is the ref seen to raise his finger as soon as Carroll initiates his swing (at this point the ref has a clear, close and direct view and there is the intent that is all that is required.)
The top of Chico’s forhead is hit before his hair is brushed and you can clearly see his head naturally jerk back (not saying this is any big thing and contact not required but definitely a knock to his forehead). Refs view may have been blocked for the contact but saw the initiation of the swing as well as it going round and intent is enough.
You watching a different game what absolute rubbish!
Agree entirely with the article , far too much shirt pulling ,wrestling ,diving and cheating in the game today .Time to relieve this outdated 19th century FA of the smokescreen it hides behind.Far too secretive , it’s all grey suits behind closed doors ,most trials in the real world are held in public for a reason .Retrospective video punishment is needed now .
The FA is a joke
The joke is that we had to pay FA’s costs of over £13,000 for losing on Friday so our costs must have been roughly the same. Would like to know how this so-called top QC advised us to appeal again after losing on Tuesday. To me it looked obvious that once we lost the first appeal there was no way we would win the second. Still would like to know who were on these panels.
Someone has mentioned arms catching you in the face should be a red.
In the same game Bony goes up with James Collins and elbows him in the face IN FRONT OF HOWARD WEBB
Collins doesn’t go down and roll around but stays on his feet rubbing his head and shaking it whilst Howard Webb runs past him looking at him to make sure he’s alright.
Double standards Mr Webb very poor !!!
Not for catching you in the face if it is just part of the normal going for the ball together etc. Only if the player is adjudged to go for another player with deliberate intent. Didn’t see the Bony incident you are talking about but seems the ref saw it from what you say but presumably adjudged it as a thing that had happened in normal play rather than a deliberate action just to go for the player. Bony is a strong player but always seems pretty gentlemanly towards opposition players whenever I have seen him play.
No way was it a red card but the FA were always going to stand by their favorite referee
Howard Webb is overall a good referee but regularly makes very poor decisions and lacks the courage to admit it when he’s wrong!
Most fans outside England think he’s hopeless
Anybody doubting that last statement should take a look at his efforts in the 2010 World Cup
Trouble is Flores theatrical response is not the only issue, he jumps with Andy Carroll in a head lock which he does release until Carroll is able to throw him off. Secondly Flores also throws an arm in the same way Carroll does aimed across his lower stomach area, only Flores knows and can see what he is doing [intent] springs to mind. Flores wins three to one only Webb is totally blind to any of Flores intentional fouls.
Actually you can see from the side that Chico jumps high first starting off from almost touching the halfway line. Andy backs into him and tries to jump into the space between Chico’s arms above him. They end up well back from the half way line. As Andy has backed into the space Chico jumped in. Andy cannot jump properly to get the ball as Chico is above him. Chico ends up falling on top of Andy and looks as though he is going to fall backwards over Andy’s left shoulder. At this point Andy is well balanced with his 2 feet planted firmly on the ground. He leans his head down as he rolls Chico forwards over his right shoulder whilst stepping backwards (both Andy’s elbows are pointed high above his back as this happens) and at this point he is facing Chico. As chico falls to the floor Andy does a quarter turn to face the crowd then still able to see Chico on his left he throws his right arm up to the side and curving his hand back starts to swing his arm back through a semi circle until it contacts Chico’s head (Chico is still in the process of getting up as Andy knocks him). You can see from the back that Andy’s right hand is still bent unnaturally back after he has hit Chico with his arm.
8 days on and still squealing!! Just grow up and get over it – he deserved red, end of story!
Flores is a cheat you clearly have never played the game at any level start watching bowls
Even if there was a smidgen of intent on Carroll’s part, the actions of Flores totally negated it, not perhaps in the rules but definitely in the spirit of the game and natural justice.
Carroll is a thug and you clearly have never played the game at any level.
The ban should be increased for attempting to over turn it. West Ham=cheats.
So if I punch you and you say that I tried to stab you then that totally negates me punching you? So if everyone will say that I tried to stab them, I can go around punching everyone and that is ok? Genius logic.
The FA remain an outdated and cowardly organisation and the single BIGGEST reason why this country has failed to rise to the levels expected by the nation as a whole. The FA are always two steps behind everyone in world football and when you look at the nobodies that the FA are composed of, is it any wonder?
Even with slo-mo video evidence, they still can’t see the facts, and nobody wants to mention Cheato or charge him under “simulation” (which happens to exist)…..Amazing!!!!
If I was Andy I’d be STEAMING!!!
But still a red card hey even according to your own fans and Carroll has a record of this kind of thing doesn’t he. No wonder if he is encouraged to think its OK.
If I was Andy I’d be thinking if I didn’t try to lash our at Chico I wouldn’t be missing 3 vital games for my club and have them make a holy show of themselves trying to defend the indefensible.
…..But you’re NOT Andy Carroll.
The thing is, two wrongs don’t make a right and the POINT of this all ISN’T the fact that the red card remains……BUT the fact that even after the appeal and video evidence, the FA came out of this without a shrewd of credibility because the appeal process is flawed and there may as well NOT be an appeal process because the referee’s call is very rarely overturned……..Bit like the police investigating the police. People of sound mind would understand this point!
Unfortunately this post seems to be attracting the waifs, strays and axe grinders!
Or from an alternative point of view the whole report is axe grinding
………or even people who can’t get enough of patting themselves on the back!
Get over it for gods sake